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From: Josko Sestan
Type: Forum
Group: Alliance Plenary
Subject: Sacred Activism
Date: November 14, 2013

Thank Lynne,

I can see you are a good Peacemaker, thank you.

My apologies Ram, I am closed to analysing emotions and what the left or right my do there is no interest there for me as it does not show me any path to a future that would achieve Peace on Earth. If you are still on this personal discovery that all power to you.

On the other hand in relation to the brain we only use 10% of it, how much is left or right I don't think matter to the big questions I am presenting.

On the other hand, I don't think God is in the business of revelation for "revelation's sake" alone. God doesn't give information just to allow the prophet to show off his connection to Source, ie. "I will tell you what is in that safe and what the combination is."

Have you read the Gospel of Thomas Lynne, quite a different take on Jesus and his message.

Very much a case of here is the safe and here is the combination, but neither to the same originator.

Peace and Love.

Josko

--- On Thu, Nov 14, 2013, Lynne Monds wrote ---

Josko and Ram,

Perhaps a middle way between your two positions is that God gives us every solution and idea we need for our well-being and that of our world. I don't think anyone believes God would hold back even one small thing if he felt it would help us to bring peace and prosperity to the world.

Jesus said of God, "His eye is on the sparrow". In other words, even the sparrow can trust that God will give her everything she needs for herself and her little chicks.

On the other hand, I don't think God is in the business of revelation for "revelation's sake" alone. God doesn't give information just to allow the prophet to show off his connection to Source, ie. "I will tell you what is in that safe and what the combination is."

There is a story about the great magus, Baba Ji, who firmly chastised his disciple for calling to him to come for no good reason.

The gods of heaven are invested in our personal and spiritual attainment, but not in our ego gratification. So I believe this is where God will draw the line on his revelation to us, his messengers.

Lynne

--- On Thu, Nov 14, 2013, Josko Sestan wrote ---

Sorry Ram,

My Left Brain nor my Right Brain knows what to make of your last comment.

Please explain with an open heart.

Regards, Josko

--- On Thu, Nov 14, 2013, Ram Varma wrote ---

--- On Thu, Nov 14, 2013, Josko Sestan wrote --- Hi Josko,

My answers to your latest comments/questions:

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SACRED ACTIVISM Reply From: Josko Sestan ID: 101795 Date: Thursday, Nov 14, 2013, 5:16:52 PM Subject: Sacred Activism Reply to: Msg 101781

HI Ram,

Sorry I missed your comment to my reply, so here goes.

Ram: The potential is unlimited/Infinite. Keep moving forward and upward! Things will be more clear and more rewarding in Self-Awareness, Expanded Awareness and Oneness as is Always { Ayn Ayn Ayn, OOOO, Ayn Ayn Ayn ...as is well explained earlier by dear Starr* at the forum}.

Josko: I disagree, while the potential is infinite and unlimited our witness of it is finite. Therefore there is no solace in knowing anything of unlimitedness and infinity when we are designated a limited time to discover our potential.

Ram: Let the Witness be Infinite as it is. Don't try to limit the unlimited.

................

Ram: Transmuting and Transformation is an ongoing process as there is an ongoing expansion of the Self/Source. Otherwise; at earthly level, things will come to a stagnant state.

Josko: Ongoing yes, but we must not discount that at anytime the Self/Source can return to it Center and remove any vain progress we think we have achieved, and begin again.

Ram: No, this is not the way the Self/Source works. Even if you have missed out or fallen down, you can always pick up from where you left. ........

Ram: What I am saying is that let's not get lost in models or concepts. Let's get started with the process. It is good to make a positive move; rather than just keep talking about the movement. Let's not talk too much how sweet, the sweet is. Let's taste it and then say how sweet it is.

Josko: I found your comments somewhat rude, I have tasted and know how sweet it is, would you like some?

Ram: Sorry, as the Truth sometimes tastes as bitter.

........

Ram: Ken Wilber's AQAL model is just a guide; just a road map. That's what any model should be. It's left hand side; as you may know; is all concerned with the inner Spiritual Self-Development on an individual and collective basis { 'I' and 'US' }. And its right hand side is all concerned with the outer manifestation of the Inner-Self; again individually and collectively { 'It' and 'Its'}. This outer side is an Inter-Spirit Activism which I submit is best handled through Selfless service as mini projects and big projects after gaining successes with mini ones; just like business sense of doing business. Some time ago, Lynne had given an AQAL overview at the forum. In brief the model takes both Inner/Spiritual and External/manifestation of life as it is in the light of #1 as highlighted above.

Josko: So you have been at the Ken Wilber's AQAL model before and went though an overview, did it lead anywhere?

Ram: Yes.

Josko : I do care for your thinking.

Ram: I respect your view points too. But we can honorably disagree too.

Josko: Love, Josko

Ram: With respectful loving disagreements as above.......Ram

HI Ram,

Sorry I missed your comment to my reply, so here goes.

Ram: The potential is unlimited/Infinite. Keep moving forward and upward! Things will be more clear and more rewarding in Self-Awareness, Expanded Awareness and Oneness as is Always { Ayn Ayn Ayn, OOOO, Ayn Ayn Ayn ...as is well explained earlier by dear Starr* at the forum}.

I disagree, while the potential is infinite and unlimited our witness of it is finite. Therefore there is no solace in knowing anything of unlimitedness and infinity when we are designated a limited time to discover our potential.

Ram: Transmuting and Transformation is an ongoing process as there is an ongoing expansion of the Self/Source. Otherwise; at earthly level, things will come to a stagnant state.

Ongoing yes, but we must not discount that at anytime the Self/Source can return to it Center and remove any vain progress we think we have achieved, and begin again.

Ram: What I am saying is that let's not get lost in models or concepts. Let's get started with the process. It is good to make a positive move; rather than just keep talking about the movement. Let's not talk too much how sweet, the sweet is. Let's taste it and then say how sweet it is.

I found your comments somewhat rude, I have tasted and know how sweet it is, would you like some?

Ram: Ken Wilber's AQAL model is just a guide; just a road map. That's what any model should be. It's left hand side; as you may know; is all concerned with the inner Spiritual Self-Development on an individual and collective basis { 'I' and 'US' }. And its right hand side is all concerned with the outer manifestation of the Inner-Self; again individually and collectively { 'It' and 'Its'}. This outer side is an Inter-Spirit Activism which I submit is best handled through Selfless service as mini projects and big projects after gaining successes with mini ones; just like business sense of doing business. Some time ago, Lynne had given an AQAL overview at the forum. In brief the model takes both Inner/Spiritual and External/manifestation of life as it is in the light of #1 as highlighted above.

So you have been at the Ken Wilber's AQAL model before and went though an overview, did it lead anywhere?

This is how I see it, love to expand on it if it does not sit well with you.

I do care for your thinking.

Love, Josko

--- On Thu, Nov 14, 2013, Ram Varma wrote ---

Hi Josko,

Thank you too for your sharing. Here are my answers to your questions:

1. Josko: Have you not risen as far as you can go?

2. Josko: Are you not free from the denser energies?

Ram: Transmuting and Transformation is an ongoing process as there is an ongoing expansion of the Self/Source. Otherwise; at earthly level, things will come to a stagnant state.

3. Josko: Is any model being proposed here a good thing or is it a good thing just that it is being proposed?

4. Josko: Ken Wilber's AQAL would be useful to the analytical minded we need spirits who wish to do practical things to raise the energy of humanity.

The above is just a recap that we have talked about so far; as I see it. See how it goes with you.

With Love and Best Wishes.......Ram

--- On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Josko Sestan wrote ---

Hi Ram,

Thank you for joining in.

Have you not risen as far as you can go?

Are you not free from the denser energies?

Is any model being proposed here a good thing or is it a good thing just that it is being proposed?

Love to hear your vibration?

Josko

PS Ken Wilber's AQAL would be useful to the analytical minded we need spirits who wish to do practical things to raise the energy of humanity.

--- On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Ram Varma wrote ---

Hi All,

Great dialogues and great models are being proposed which is a good thing. However, all we need is simple ways how to raise our Consciousness to free ourselves from the denser energies and enter into lighter and lighter energies.

Having started with this transmuting and ascending process; both on an individual and collective basis, we need to translate those lighter/ascended qualities in manifestation through mini projects ( to start with) and in due course to bigger and bigger initiatives. As small successes do lead to big ones in the course of time as long as there is continuous uplifting energy behind them.

Individual Selfless service according to one's own unique talents is a good simpler start within InterSpirit Activism. Needless to say, Ken Wilber's AQAL model is a good refernce point. The uplifting Energy and the skills so required in all the quadranta and lines to do the jobs can be picked up in a combination of unique ways. In that context, I believe, Starr* is making a great point not to lose track of many good pointers we already have on board.

Hope it goes well with such a beautiful group at InterSpirit Alliance.

In Appreciation......Ram

Maybe the

--- On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Josko Sestan wrote ---

Hi Lynne,

Not much to study required in the video, certainly there is deeper information on the various topics he queries available for study.

For me it is raw emotion, my answer to Judge is What if it is not a question of What if!

Peace, Love and happiness...

Josko

--- On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Lynne Monds wrote ---

Yes, your words are quite clear, Josko, thank you. I will study the Judge Napolitano video, then share my thoughts on it later.

It is quite obvious you are thinking out of the box for solutions, which is always a good thing.

Blessings, Lynne

--- On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Josko Sestan wrote ---

Greetings and salutation Lynne,

Thank you for taking interest and your questions.

My issue with democracy that it is not a true representation of The People. It is in essence corrupt, it has been used to subvert freedoms and peoples rights.

Please take a few minutes to view this from Judge Napolitano a Fox News contributor (of all people) explaining my rage at the system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QT8Q-Hcll0

My vision for democracy is to utilise technology constructed openly and transparently (truly and absolutely) to reconcile the will of the people in a direct democracy where for agreed issues we all vote on how best to proceed, in fact I call this system Alltruocracy. I would also like to see the mathematical and statistical minded create a algorithm which gives those with wisdom, higher intelligence, spirituality and other recognised traits that are helpful to humanity have more weight on the vote in this Alltruocracy.

We need to significantly change this system, we most definitely need a revolution, we need to pit the visionary system against the current world systems and see people awaken to the real issues that control our lives.

There is more I can detail, let me know how that sits with you and does it make sense. Kind Regards, Josko

--- On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Lynne Monds wrote ---

Hello Josko,

Thank you for this eloquent and passionate message.

I resonated with much of what you said here, but I was unclear about the issue you take with democracy. Can you explain that further for me?

And can you also inform us as to what method you would use for coming to agreement on activism , if not democracy? Are you a consensus guy?

Thanks much.

Lynne

--- On Wed, Nov 13, 2013, Josko Sestan wrote ---

Thank you Bruce,

These are beautiful words, and I would like to offer my comments for consideration.

To bring the great vision of universal spirituality into a clear simple form one needs to satisfy the yearning of not millions but approximately 5.5 Billion souls that are afixiated by the prophesy of their religion.

No gradual awakening will overcome this mathematical equation, and all we do is end up preaching to the converted with a small gradual extension of our message.

We need a message that takes our interspirituality and align it to the realisation of the prophecy, this is the story of the stars and we must play our part in its reconciliation to truly awaken humanity and shift our collective consciousness toward the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

There is a part for every soul to play in the delivery of this prophecy, can I remind you the prophecy is not confined to Christianity, Judaism and Islam, many civilisations have ordained and understood the coming of the age would consummate the fulfillment of the divine will on Earth.

We need to realise that the events of our time has been foretold, the problem and challenge is as you know how to interpret them, as an example one of the prophecies talks about the Anti-Christ. We must recognised these aspects not to represent a person, these are energies and movements that have weaved their way through our psyche, the antichrist is exactly what is represented in the USA where they explicitly keep apart "church/state separation" by laws. This has poisoned our collective consciousness and Democracy is the culprit.

In a world of symbols and representations do you see any other force than Democracy under the auspices of peace and freedom take countries away from the spiritual and God. Even the name holds its true vein. DEMO N CRACY.

Therefore I identify two aspects of what is required and needs to be thought thrugh:

"How can we realise the cosmic prophesy of delivering the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and move 5.5 Billion towards our interspiritual existence?"

"How do we overcome this corrupt and deceitful system that is called Democracy?"

Two details that are important that form the Sacred and require Activism.

To understand "sacred" in truly universal terms, the shaman, druids, high princesses, buddhists, hindus need to see that the distribution of worlds energy provides the ultimate truth and answers, there is something to Christ. Many around the world who are awakening are now calling it the Christ Consciousness I see no reason why we cannot accept that form of spirituality as it can be the universal name for all states of the spiritual.

Absolutely this framework and visionary process requires clarity of articulation and explicit conceptualization? (This is the Activism) We have to work out a formal agreement among religious and spiritual leaders? (This is the Sacred) We have to design and develop some kind of a "system" that can contain and integrate this movement? (This is the Sacred Activism)

I have ideas on how this should look and many visions of what the future would look like.

Something profoundly collaborative and co-creative is being born through us. If we can stay stable, and calmly receptive, and wisely collaborative and consistently constructive -- we might be at the birthing moment of a tremendous new force for social and spiritual change.

More than some even care to feel...

Love to discuss further and would respond to any comments or questions.

Josko www.optimalunity.org Love for All All for Love

--- On Tue, Nov 12, 2013, Bruce Schuman wrote ---

I wanted to review this quote from Andrew Harvey and offer a few comments on its implications.

http://interspirit.net/alliance/sacred.cfm

The great and revolutionary thing we are trying to do here, it seems to me -- something that has been difficult for this broad integral/interspiritual movement, despite its undeniable world-wide breadth-- involves bringing the great vision of universal spirituality into a clear simple form, then showing how this simple form leads to real-world social change activism.

We do more-or-less kind-of already know how to do this. But here we are getting specific and precise, and looking for ways to build a broad agreement -- conceivably among thousands of groups and millions of individuals. With that kind of broad world-transforming goal in mind, we need to keep our ideas absolutely clear and simple and truly universal -- and possibly develop some kind of large-scale co-creative process that looks for agreement among diverse groups.

Andrew Harvey: It has become increasingly clear that only Sacred Activism—the fusion of the deepest mystical knowledge, peace, strength, and stamina with calm, focused, and radical action in every arena of society, culture, economics, and politics — can be of help in our growing world crisis. Neither a purely "spiritual" nor simply "activist" approach can solve our enormous problems.

This statement is "integral" -- in that it combines into one framework elements that are often kept apart -- and which in the USA are explicitly kept apart by laws regarding "church/state separation". Our challenge here -- is to find a way to bring these elements together -- a profound universal attunement with spirituality -- and a commitment to public-sphere social change activism.

Harvey's statement is also integral in that it combines "every arena of society" -- all of which should be approached through the influence of the sacred as understood in universal terms.

How can we understand "sacred" in truly universal terms -- when in the USA, though we are a nation with a long history of religious engagement, explicitly outlaw direct connection between religious and political institutions? The answer is -- we have to do this with a high degree of wisdom and grace and finesse.

Perhaps this entire process has to be approached in a gradual way -- that begins by drawing together people who are already committed to a universal spirituality, and who are not inclined to challenge or doubt it on ideological grounds -- and then gradually proceed from there into a broader approach that is defined in truly universal terms that do not depend on some kind of underlying religious conviction, but which can be defined and defended in purely secular or "humanistic" terms.

Andrew Harvey: The core teachings of all the major mystical paths make it clear that there is, within human beings, an enormous unused reservoir of pure divine power, the pure power of sacred wisdom consciousness, passion, and compassion--the power of what Jesus called the kingdom of heaven, and of what in Hinduism is known as bliss-consciousness. These core teachings also reveal that if we can learn how to use this power--or rather how to let it use us as its luminous instruments—we will harness the "energies of love" and discover for ourselves how a clear, focused, purified, divine passion devoted to transformative action on all levels can birth a new world.

This, or something very much like this, is our guiding vision. But we need to clarify the meaning of "the core teachings of all the major mystical paths." We might say that only some religions are "mystical paths" -- or perhaps more accurately, that only parts of each major religion are mystical. Huston Smith in Forgotten Truth refers to the difference between "esoteric" (mystical) and "exoteric" (non-mystical) levels of religion. In Smith's view, religions come together at the esoteric/mystical level, and are divided at the exoteric level.

As sacred activists, what we want to do is become attuned to this "enormous unused reservoir of pure divine power", and within the context of that attunement, develop a collective movement of many activists ("millions") who are able to bring issues into focus, to clarify complex deliberative questions ("What should we do about global warming? Did global warming cause the typhoon Haiyan that devastated the Philippines?") Our inability as a culture to confront this question accurately may result in terrible consequences for the entire human race. The need to develop a wise and powerful and effective approach seems absolute.

Andrew Harvey: What must happen now is that millions of us must be compelled awake by the growing disaster of our own making to understand that the way forward is, as Jung said, the way through—the way through a naked acknowledgment of our responsibility for our actions and the addictions and lust for power that propelled them that, if it is united with conscious connection with the Divine Light and its grace, will not only help us preserve ourselves and nature, but transform us into being conscious, humble, co-creators of an increasingly just and peaceful world.

We must find a way to connect with millions of people, and find a way to "come into resonance" with them, regarding basic elements of understanding, that can facilitate effective collective action.

Andrew Harvey: What fills me with hope is that millions of human beings are now, in the fire of our current financial and environmental crises, waking up to the need for inner and outer transformation making the quantum evolutionary leap I have been describing possible. The time for the Birth of Sacred Activism on a global scale has arrived. Everything is now at stake and everything is possible.

The Birth of Sacred Activism on a global scale....

Such a powerful thought. I think he's correct, of course -- but is this possible?

Does something like this simply emerge across the world by instinct -- because people everywhere tune in on something primal and simple, that contains all the answers?

Or does this framework and visionary process require clarity of articulation and explicit conceptualization? Do we have to work out a formal agreement among religious and spiritual leaders? Do we have to design and develop some kind of a "system" that can contain and integrate this movement?

I can't say that I know the answer to this question -- but my instinct is to come down on the side of explicit articulation. I think we have to master this process. We have to "do it on purpose".

And where the great hope rising in me is founded -- is that I believe we actually can do this -- that in fact, we are fairly close to actually doing it now -- at least in its earliest and most basic stages.

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