From: Yahoo Discussion
Date: Tuesday, January 2, 2007
Topic: General
MsgID: 255343

Hello... There are so many good messages in this discussion. It's fun and inspiring to read them. And I feel so at home in this context -- all these themes, being raised by everybody, are the critical themes of my own life, and my explorations... So, coming in here a bit abruptly -- yes, I have been trying to read everything, but I'm not quite caught up yet -- I just thought I would offer a few comments on this particular message, just because reading it made my fingers stop clicking the "next" button.... ** > Brahmavid - great question and I commend you on > starting this dialogue. me too :) (laugh) > I believe we have to ask a much deeper question, what > transcends religions and even science? To me > (dualistic)science and (dualistic) religion are the > children of the deep pulsing of unitary Beingness > (life, both transcendent and imminent) that religion > and science can only point toward but neither can > clearly show in all of its totality. Yes -- I agree. I like this formulation. Does this leave us speechless, awestruck? Well, maybe yes -- and then we pick ourselves up, and dare some kind of conceptualization, some crude and prejudiced approximation -- just because it's such a deep instinct in us to do this... But I do think the conversation evolves -- and gets better. Get religion and science in the same room, eyeballing each other across the great epistemic divide -- or maybe even chatting and becoming friends -- and some new chemistry begins to enter the situation. This is the great thing about our situation today. It's so tremendously "co-creative" -- and "interdisciplinary" -- not to mention "intercultural". All these angles and perspectives illuminate one another. It's hard for any prejudice to find a corner to hide in, when light is being cast on these questions from so many simultaneous angles. This is one of the reasons I feel that "relationships" are an essential aspect of what is emerging for us today. There is a psychological dynamic that is empowered when people stay in a mutually respectful / mutually listening co-creative relationship. The very diversity in the conversation, when the elements remain in co-creative relationship, drives the fundamental energies of creativity. People who are sometimes inclined to fault or dismiss the tendency to "syncretism" may be insensitive to this creative dynamic. "Stick to one or the other", they try to tell you. "Don't try to patch something together." But I think they are wrong, and ignoring a lot of the creative force that has vitalized religion over the centuries. It is this "cross-pollination" that makes religion strong, that fertilizes its implications for the real world... The innocent human mind wants to understand. Bring all sources of understanding together, put them in relationship, let them bond. The innate creative forces will emerge with entirely new and unheard-of new insights.... > This totality is > revealed only in the depths of each entities heart. And I like this point, too -- that maybe, when we are speaking of our deepest spiritual/religious understanding -- we should consciously and explicitly recognize that conceptualization simply fails us. "The being" is unitary -- conceptualization is dualistic. Be content to feel it -- and to be confident that others also feel it. Confirm that knowing in some other way than through some negotiated conceptual agreement.... such as in a smile -- or the light in someone's eyes, or the sound of their breathing.... > Also when we speak of religion, we should be clear > whether we are talking about Non-Dualistic religion or > Dualistic religion. Well, I will have to read a little more to get clear on "Dual" and "Non-Dual". But maybe we are talking about "conceptual" and "non- conceptual" (??) I am happy to flow through either of these modes -- I think we need both. Human language has its limitations -- but it has its glories as well. > Universal Beingness belongs to no religion, philosophy > or science, no matter how great they may believe they > are. It lies deep in the nature of nature and these > 'methodologies' can only point toward this Beingness - > either with some clarity are [or] in a very confused > manner. My own instinct these days -- is towards something very simple. I am tending to suppose that the entire thing may be summarized in a paragraph or two... I've gotten to the point where I don't think it's about concepts or ideologies -- it's about the energy that emerges from the center -- And human beings bond to one another -- and to the divine -- through the same center, and through this same energy. So, the objective of all practice -- and of all theology and all metaphysical concepts -- is simply to bring human beings to their deep sacred center, and allow them to unfold their souls like flowers through the grace that emerges from that center.... And this is one of the reasons that I am excited about what is emerging today -- in this conversation -- and in the creative spiritual energies being released around the planet. Diversity in relationship drives a convergence towards absolute center. Turn away from the relationship, close off, let things fragment on some point of ideology -- and the convergence freezes. It is no longer accurate or trustworthy. But stay in relationship -- stay in co-creativity -- keep listening, keep honoring "the other" -- and the infinite common center emerges and becomes present.... I just tend to suppose that our task, our work -- is to encourage and mediate and facilitate -- and institutionalize as appropriate -- this process -- everywhere throughout society and in the world.... > Ramakrishna followed many various paths and > reached the same goal - but the question is what is > that 'goal' and I believe it was universal Beingness > and these religions did not do it for him, it was his > own deep yearning in the depths of his Beingness > (which is just ecological evolution) and we each must > do the same. Yes. And I would say -- that we (anyone) can do this simply through love -- and maybe a few other virtues, like kindness and trust and loyalty and humility... all of which are the fruit of a mature religious/spiritual path. Some of us have a deeper "yearning" -- some of us are just "built that way" and simply can't accept anything else. I think I am probably in that class -- and so cannot credit myself with heroic virtue or great will to the divine -- it's just my soul trying to be itself.... > The only true unification is love which each must find > in the depths of their own Beingness. No religion is > better than another, some might be able to point more > clearly to this universal Beingness such as some of > the Non-Dual versions of Vedanta, Zen Buddhism, Native > American spirituality but in the end they all must be > transcended in the fire of universal experience in the > heart of nature. Yes, beautifully put. That is the universal sacred chalice of initiation and purification. Maybe our work here is simply to convene and convoke that opportunity in the world -- to facilitate an open door into that initiation.... > I believe it is only when we start > to transcend thousands of years of superstitious beliefs > that we will even begin to answer these questions. > This will take a very expansive heart and an open > mind. Religions (eastern or western) are notorious > for being fanatical. Vedanta is better than Buddhism, > Buddhism is better than Christianity, Religion is > better than those 'materialistic scientists' etc. etc. > And we also have further illusions such as monks are > better than 'householders' - it is all dualistic > delusion as far as I am concerned. Yes, there is a lot of "deprogramming" to do -- to unwind layers of doctrine and replace them with an innocent openness -- so, this is just one of many reasons why "consecrated spiritual practice" is still very much needed. We need -- everyone needs -- ways of self- transformation, that unwind the layers of karma that separate us from our own natural center. Prayer -- and "karma yoga" -- and any other kind of consecrated effort -- can move us in that direction. Thanks to all. Many blessings. - Bruce